Auteur Topic: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?  (gelezen 2247 keer)

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Offline RadekSkylark

Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Gepost op: 04 oktober 2016, 20:59 »
Hallo guys.


I'm from Latvia and just bought a Honda Transalp XL650V from a used motorcycle dealer in Germany. This bike had a good price and has pretty much all maintenance done, so I'm pretty happy about it, but unfortunately there is also a dark side to this story.


Please help me to identify such problems:
1) When starting the bike cold there seems to be a clicking noise in the left crankcase which disappears when engine gets warm. Here is a little video of it (check the description as well):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-gdwUVApcE.

What could this be and could it be a serious problem?
2) When I depress the clutch lever so that the clutch is disengaged there is a little rattling sound in the right crankcase. After adjusting clutch lever to 10-15mm of freeplay (around 1/2") the rattling disappears when lever is fully depressed, but is present when the lever is only halfway depress, although at this point clutch is fully disengaged. What could this be and could it be a serious problem?
3) How can you actually see the level of coolant in the overflow tank? The tank is no where near transparent - I cannot see through it, so I don't know the actual level of the coolant, although at this point it seems that the coolant is beyond "upper" mark. How should I gauge it and should I empty the tank a bit on a fully warm engine so that it is just under "upper" mark?
4) There seems to be undoubtedly distinguishable engine resistance with kind of a deep engine sound when I let off the throttle after acceleration at mid to high rpm's (doesn't matter how fast is the acceleration) - is this normal? I ask this because the only previous bike I had was Honda Dominator NX650 which I rebuild before really riding it and I don't remember that it had such a strong engine resistance (braking) while de-accelerating, so this makes me wonder is it normal on a XL650V? Anyhow this seems to be comming of the front end of the bike (particularly from engine), although I might be off and it could be something else, like chain or something, although chain set is pretty much new and chain slack with rider on the bike is 35mm as per manual.


Anyhow everything else on the bike looks good. The only other thing is that both front discs are around 3,75mm in thickness, so hopefully I will get at least a full season out of them (brake pads are all like new).


Thanks guys.

Offline Arjen

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #1 Gepost op: 04 oktober 2016, 21:52 »
Hallo guys.

Hi Radek :)

Please help me to identify such problems:
1) When starting the bike cold there seems to be a clicking noise in the left crankcase which disappears when engine gets warm. Here is a little video of it (check the description as well):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-gdwUVApcE.

What could this be and could it be a serious problem?

How many kilometers on the odometer? It's hard to hear, it sounds to me like the plastic cover of the gear lever/front sprocket protection is a bit loose. Did you check the bolts? Does it stop when you touch this piece of plastic while idling?

It could as well be a worn out camshaft chain, but this really depends on the odometer.


2) When I depress the clutch lever so that the clutch is disengaged there is a little rattling sound in the right crankcase. After adjusting clutch lever to 10-15mm of freeplay (around 1/2") the rattling disappears when lever is fully depressed, but is present when the lever is only halfway depress, although at this point clutch is fully disengaged. What could this be and could it be a serious problem?

This sounds pretty normal and I think all you hear is the difference in tension at the clutch section. Please mind, it's a V-Twin and much more rough running compared to a 4-cylinder in line.

3) How can you actually see the level of coolant in the overflow tank? The tank is no where near transparent - I cannot see through it, so I don't know the actual level of the coolant, although at this point it seems that the coolant is beyond "upper" mark. How should I gauge it and should I empty the tank a bit on a fully warm engine so that it is just under "upper" mark?

The best way to check your coolant level as at the right radiator. Let the engine cool down and be careful while removing the cap on the radiator (use a rag to protect your hands, unless you are really really sure the engine is completely cooled down i.e. let it rest overnight). You should see coolant almost directly under the cap.

The reservoir below the seat is a 'reserve' and 'overflow' which is only used when needed. It should be transparant, but removing it is a bitch bit challenging because you will need to remove many many parts. Unscrew the cap, look into the reservoir. Make sure the coolant is clear blue or yellow. It should not be brown(ish) or not be black(ish).

4) There seems to be undoubtedly distinguishable engine resistance with kind of a deep engine sound when I let off the throttle after acceleration at mid to high rpm's (doesn't matter how fast is the acceleration) - is this normal? I ask this because the only previous bike I had was Honda Dominator NX650 which I rebuild before really riding it and I don't remember that it had such a strong engine resistance (braking) while de-accelerating, so this makes me wonder is it normal on a XL650V? Anyhow this seems to be comming of the front end of the bike (particularly from engine), although I might be off and it could be something else, like chain or something, although chain set is pretty much new and chain slack with rider on the bike is 35mm as per manual.

A domi 650 is a single-cylinder with an even higher compression, meaning even more engine braking compared to a Transalp... in normal conditions. Sounds a bit like it's too lean on fuel or bad carb syncing. Did you check the airfilter already? Again...odometer...? Could as well be valve clearance which requires adjusting, or something related to the exhaust/catalyzer.

Anyhow everything else on the bike looks good. The only other thing is that both front discs are around 3,75mm in thickness, so hopefully I will get at least a full season out of them (brake pads are all like new).

I suspect your transalp has at least > 80.000km on the odometer, reading about the worn front discs. If this is the case, I suggest visiting a Honda dealer or specialist to listen to your engine as well. They sometimes even listen to your engine with a doctors stethoscope and find out what is wrong ;)

It looks (and sounds) like a nice a bike. If you treat it properly, it will pay off. I know people owning a Transalp with over 200.000km on the odometer, it's a very reliable bike. I even think the 650 is the most reliable of all Transalp types made so far.

Good luck with your Transalp and please keep us posted about your issues :)
XL600V '97 - “Never Stop Exploring” (in aanbouw)

Offline RadekSkylark

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #2 Gepost op: 04 oktober 2016, 23:27 »
It has done 56k km. As I have quite a long list with receipts from services done from 2007 till 2015 to the bike I'm sure that is the correct odo reading. The bike seems to be cared for as it has upgrades such as custom gel seat, LUCAS handlebars with handlebar raisers, SW motech crashbars, GIVI luggage rack, 3 GIVI cases, central stand.

The plastic cover is not the problem - the noise is there even when the cover is off.

About engine braking - I read on one forum that a guy had some issues when de-accelerating (similar to mine) and he had a badly worn  front sprocket retainer - here is mine - I can't remember how new one looked but this looks badly worn to me - could this possibly be the problem?

https://s22.postimg.org/k61afn3xt/20161001_143958.jpg

Airfilter has been changed or cleaned as well as the carbs have been synchronized - that is what the seller has told me, he also told me that brake fluid, engine oil and coolant have been changes (they seems to be fresh), as well as valve clearances have been checked/adjusted (which also seems to be true as there is no excessive noise from head).

I also have a stethoscope - will give it a try tomorrow.

200k kms... That is the thing - I cant believe that at 56k there should be any serious problems with the bike which seems to be maintained.

P.S. Here is a picture of the bike :)

https://s14.postimg.org/td8hg32g1/IMG_2488.jpg

Offline RadekSkylark

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #3 Gepost op: 05 oktober 2016, 22:16 »
Today I tried to listen to the engine with a stethoscope. Firstly I have to say that today I think the noise was not as big as in the previously posted video - check it for yourself and tell me do you agree - here is the sound clip: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0SWEuvVYr7E.


Anyhow it really seems that the biggest "tick" comes from water pump assembly cover - I'm not 100% sure that this is the noise I'm looking for, but I'm 100% sure that the best location for hearing the engine inner noise with a low to mid range pitch was there. If so, does anyone have any suggestions - what could cause the noise?


I also took of the front sprocket retainer plate and I'm not sure the teeth should be worn like this:


https://s18.postimg.org/ez91qmtxl/20161005_202817.jpg


https://s18.postimg.org/4dp6emnm1/20161005_203025.jpg


Anyhow the retainer and thus the front sprocket has around 1-2mm of side movement on the main drive axle. Also noticed that the main drive axle as well as the axle on which the gear shift lever goes both have around 1mm of side movement (in the dirrection of axle axis), although if I remember correctly that is normal.


Thanks
« Laatst bewerkt op: 05 oktober 2016, 22:51 door RadekSkylark »

Offline Arjen

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #4 Gepost op: 05 oktober 2016, 22:21 »
Based on your information and only the 56k kilometers, I'm not suspecting any serious internal issues right now.

A badly worn sprocket retainer can be easily detected: try to fiddle the front sprocket around. If it has a lot of movement clearance, your retainer is worn.

About the clicking sound on the left side, it could be related.

Maybe a worn bearing of your main drive axle, but I think you will be able to detect this by taking away all the tension of your chain, or even remove the front sprocket completely (loosen rear axle nuts, slide your rear wheel to the front, take of the chain from the front sprocket, remove the two bolts, the retainer and the front sprocket).

Did you check on the stoneguard at the bottom, the plastic piece protecting the bottom of your engine. Check if it is attached correctly (with all the bolts) and you might check the inside as well for small pieces of rock or wood. Make sure to check this, before you go into "front sprocket disassemble mode" ;)
Skip that.

Drain your coolant, remove the cover of your water pump and inspect inner housing and the pump wheel itself.

« Laatst bewerkt op: 05 oktober 2016, 22:23 door Arjen »
XL600V '97 - “Never Stop Exploring” (in aanbouw)

Offline RadekSkylark

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #5 Gepost op: 05 oktober 2016, 22:58 »
Here are pictures with the retainer:

https://s18.postimg.org/ez91qmtxl/20161005_202817.jpg

https://s18.postimg.org/4dp6emnm1/20161005_203025.jpg

I'm not sure, but to me it seems worn. Retainer and thus also the front sprocket both have a 1-2mm side play on the main drive shaft. Also the shaft itself, as well as the shaft which holds the gear lever both have around 1mm free play in the direction of their axis.

How do I check the main drive shaft bearing - should I check it for free play in direction perpendicular to its axis as well as resistance to rotation?

If I take of the water pump assembly cover there is a gasket - will I be able to reuse it?

P.S. One of my mates who also worked for Honda motorcycle dealers as a mechanic suggested over the phone that it could be actually the rotor inside the water pump - it could be a bit loose and could make noise until it would expand when engine gets warm.

Thanks

Offline RadekSkylark

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #6 Gepost op: 07 oktober 2016, 12:27 »
Today I once again inspected the noise with stethoscope. To me it seems 90% clear that the noise comes from water pump. Here is the sound clip from today (around 1200 rpm, ambient temp. around 8 degrees Celsius): http://vocaroo.com/i/s0UEaLoSiaF1

Also I though of checking the water pump by hand - maybe there is some vibration that I can feel. And indeed there was a recognizable vibration from the water pump assembly that I could feel with my hand, the vibration was different and much stronger that the one coming from the rest of the crankcase (touched the crankcase and there was only a really slight vibration [engine was not hot yet]).

Called the seller in Germany and told him that there seem to be a problem with water pump and that I'm going to take the bike to Honda dealers shop tomorrow so they can hear it too and tell me what do they think what should be done. I'm pretty sure that they'll come to the same conclusion as I did - remove water pump cover and check water pump rotor for free play (as well as other things in the water pump), and after that remove the water pump and start the engine for around 30 seconds to check if the noise is still present - if not then it is clear that the water pump needs replacement. Anyhow I told the seller that because he told me that there are no problems with the engine I would want him to pay for the repair. He told me that tomorrow after showing the bike to dealers mechanics I should write him an e-mail and he'll contact me afterwards. If that will turn out to be water pump indeed then it'll cost me around 320 euros to replace, which I don't have at the moment and will have trouble finding as I bought the bike on loan which I planned to pay off in a year. So after tomorrow I hope that the seller will be kind enough to accept his lack of explanation and will pay for the repair.

Thanks for everything guys.
« Laatst bewerkt op: 07 oktober 2016, 12:41 door RadekSkylark »

Offline Waffie

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #7 Gepost op: 07 oktober 2016, 17:13 »
hello
It's my advice  to change your plan.
Nobody can see what your problem is whitout dismantle the engine or parts of it
it could be the water pump but this pump is directly driven by the crank and it's also possible that there is a bigger problem,

It can be very expensive when it needs more attention as you think

(perhaps total rebuild of the engine>2000 euri)
You will never get your money back  from the repair from the seller....!!!
because it's your choice to bring it to a local repair guy
I would consider it to bring the bike back to the guy who sold it to and let him fix it


every moment you ride this bike whit this problem there will  be a chance you will destroy more and that is also your choice
make up your mind

if this is not possible

take your loss and  put in another engine
this would be the fastest solution to satisfy you the best and less costs

« Laatst bewerkt op: 07 oktober 2016, 17:21 door Waffie »
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Offline voorstad

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #8 Gepost op: 07 oktober 2016, 19:44 »
Or, if it would be possible: go to our beloved club-engineers like Waffie! Magic!

Good luck with your tough  decision. Don't let it spoil your fun driving a Transalp!

P. S. Waffie, your English is somehow better than your Dutch ;-)
« Laatst bewerkt op: 07 oktober 2016, 19:46 door voorstad »
PD10 mods: Hyperpro veren, Morad velg, staalomvlochten remleidingen, Rayz zadel, rvs Morad valbeugel, "poor man's" Mudflap / hugger / spatbordverlenger, Scottoiler, Huzar uitlaat, Heavy Duties bagagerek, PimW's verlaagde voetsteunen & PimW's carterbak

Offline Arjen

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #9 Gepost op: 07 oktober 2016, 20:04 »
@Voorstad: it seems our friend is located in Latvia, so that will be quite some trip to Waffie ;)

@Radek:

Don't jump to conclusions too fast and take it step by step. If you really suspect something is wrong with the waterpump, take one first step to remove the cover (or to have it removed). Check the inside of the housing for dirt and other possible debris. Clean it, check it.

It's also important to check your coolant level first and make sure the pump is actually pumping water (not air).

In case the water pump needs replacing, you should consider rebuilding with used parts. The part itself will cost you around €50. Maybe some small materials and some gasket will bring it to €75, it will save you some money.

As far as the story from Waffie, I don't like to think about replacing a complete engine with 56.000km because of some odd rattle. Actually, I don't expect it to be necessary and I still think there is a much simpler thing causing this issue. Don't get into the negative spiral, but take small steps in fixing the issue.
XL600V '97 - “Never Stop Exploring” (in aanbouw)

Offline voorstad

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #10 Gepost op: 07 oktober 2016, 20:14 »
Latvia, I know. It was just a message with a big wink  :))

More serious, Poland is around the corner and we have an active Transalp forum overthere as well... :
http://forum.transalpclub.pl/

Perhaps a Polish "Waffie" is available and closer by?
PD10 mods: Hyperpro veren, Morad velg, staalomvlochten remleidingen, Rayz zadel, rvs Morad valbeugel, "poor man's" Mudflap / hugger / spatbordverlenger, Scottoiler, Huzar uitlaat, Heavy Duties bagagerek, PimW's verlaagde voetsteunen & PimW's carterbak

Offline RadekSkylark

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #11 Gepost op: 08 oktober 2016, 00:52 »
Thanks guys for advice.

The problem at this point is time, as my wife is due in a week or two, although the baby could come in a day as well, so I don't have time to deal with this problem, that is way I wanted a bike from dealer in DE, when I could possibly hope that it is indeed in good condition without defects - this one seems to be at least a little bit of a miss.

Anyhow if I ever come close to doing work on the engine I'll probably be doing it myself and if I wouldn't, I would not give the bike to "some local guy", but Honda dealers shop, so the receipt should do as far as asking the seller to pay for it. And if I'll find out that this problem cannot be fixed under 350 euros anyway, than I will arrange transport back to the seller so he can fix the problem, although it will cost me at least 300 euros anyway, so possibly I will just have to either rebuild it by myself or by another engine and sell parts of of this.

Although I also don't think that there will be a need for a complete engine rebuild, at this point to me it seems that the problem should be localized, not wide-spread.

Thanks guys.

Offline RadekSkylark

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #12 Gepost op: 08 oktober 2016, 11:54 »
Today went to the Honda dealers and after talking with a guy decided to leave the bike in the shop for water pump check out. I think they'll remove the water pump cover, check out the water pump itself and then they'll remove the water pump and will start up the bike to check if the noise is still there.  After that will see what's going on and if the problem will be found. If so, than I'll need to replace the water pump and will try to get the seller to pay the bill.

Thanks guys again for everything!

Offline Arjen

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #13 Gepost op: 08 oktober 2016, 18:02 »
Ok, please keep us posted, I'm curious :)
XL600V '97 - “Never Stop Exploring” (in aanbouw)

Offline RadekSkylark

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #14 Gepost op: 26 januari 2017, 21:32 »
Hallo, guys.

I've been unbelievably busy for the past months, as my daughter was born in 19th of October.

Anyway, I got the bike back from the Honda dealers shop. They disassembled the water pump, started the engine without it and the noise was gone. The water pump seemed to be in good order. They installed the water pump and the noise was gone. So it seems that there was some kind of problem with the previous installation of the water pump. After that I did try to find the noise again every time I started the bike but it was definitely not there to the extent it was before, possibly there was a really small noise, but that would be normal operation of the water pump/engine.

For now the bike has been winterized and I hope that after few months when I'll start the season the noise will be gone as well. Will try to inform you guys after few months on the situation.

Thanks for everything,
Cheers!

Offline Arjen

Re: Strange engine noise on my Honda Transalp XL650V?
« Reactie #15 Gepost op: 27 januari 2017, 19:59 »
Great to hear the issue appears to be gone, thanks for reporting :)

Let's hope it will be still gone once the sun starts shining again  :))
XL600V '97 - “Never Stop Exploring” (in aanbouw)